Note from Recap Editor: Because of difficulty with the recording, this recap includes a few gaps where [inaudible] appears. Corrections are welcome.
Peter Todoroff – Moderator
Does anyone have something they want to talk about?
Judy Simons – Incline Resident, TRPA Advisory Planning Committee, Member
I’m concerned about the Tahoe Keys and the matters going before the Lahontan Water Board in about a month or so and possibly TRPA in January. I’m trying to do research on this, as I’m able. But I don’t know the exact timelines. There is a website called Tahoe Keys Weeds that has documents of studies the past 3-4 years. I don’t know if anyone else has any information but I wanted everyone to be aware of that. [https://tahoekeysweeds.org]
Jeff Cowen – Tahoe Regional Planning Agency, Information Officer
Judith pretty much summed it up. The draft Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) from Lahonton Regional Water Quality Control Board posted. It is out for comment. We’ve received several 1000s of comments over the last couple of years. It is for a “controlled methods” test. The objective of the permit and the test is to try different methods to see what works to ultimately control the population of aquatic invasive weeds in the Tahoe Keys. It’s only a test. So the herbicides that are being tested—or would be tested if approved—are both EPA certified and are only being used to see if they hold long term. That is all that we know at this point.
I looked at the reports, and there were quite a few of them on line. It looked like there were three different herbicides; and one of them has already been discounted, so now there are two two herbicides?
That’s my understanding.
I’m not a scientist, but why are two out of three approved? The two herbicides are approved by the EPA, right?
I think all three were. I don’t think they were proposing anything the EPA wouldn’t approve. Lake Tahoe is a non-degradation center because it is” an outstanding natural resource water,” so only EPA approved herbicides would be considered. And the ones that were considered are known to work on the types of weeds in the Keys.
They may be the same type of weeds, but they really haven’t been tested on any lake comparable to ours have they?
I’m not sure. My coworker Victoria Ortiz, our Community Engagement manager, is on communications and outreach for the Tahoe Keys multiple methods control test. And she is out of the office. I did work with her to try to get her on this meeting, and she shall be when she returns.
Will these methods be tried in an order?
I haven’t seen the proposal. I think they are trying them alone in one area then trying them in combination in another area.
I’ve been trying to contact Madonna Dunbar with the Water Board and been unable to reach her. Did the Water Board have any position that you know of?
I don’t know. They’ve been included, definitely, because Tahoe is a source of their drinking water. So it’s high on everyone’s awareness list.
Kari Ferguson – Incline Village General Improvement District, Communications Coordinator
Judy, I’ll have Madonna reach out to you.
I would appreciate that because I have emailed her and sent a phone message. Thanks.
Jeff, I have a question. I was under the impression that herbicides were going to be the last resort. What happened to the ultraviolet light? They found that was working, right? So why are we poisoning the lake with herbicides?
It’s a test to see what types will work. I don’t think anyone is proposing to use it long term until something comes out of the test that says it is safe and useful. Ultraviolet light is being used right now. There’s nothing stopping its use. It has a lot of challenges in a population that’s as heavy and thick as in the Keys. Right now I don’t think anybody is opposing that. The Tahoe Keys Property Association wants to do the multiple-methods control test. We’re reviewing their permit application to see if it’s possible. That’s where we’re at in the process—assessing environmental impact.
Several years ago they said that would be the last resort that they would be using an herbicide to poison the lake and the drinking water. Basically that’s what it’s going to do. So I just wondered what’s difficult with ultraviolet light because that seemed to be doing the job that they wanted. But now they’re going to be poisoning the lake with herbicides, which is our drinking water.
Bruce Townsend – Incline Resident, IVGID Ordinance 7 Committee, Member
I have a question for Jeff. It’s with regard to property at 948 Tahoe Blvd. This was the old Incline Realty, which is now being used as boat storage. I called in to Washoe 311 and they said they were going to look at it, but it’s been over 4 weeks and I haven’t heard anything back. Does TRPA have anything to do with that?
Yes. We’ve been looking into that since earlier this summer. The Compliance Manager and I talked about it a few times earlier. They are in communication with the new property owner. That’s the last I heard about it. I was hoping it had already been resolved. The Compliance Manager is currently out for personal reasons. So as soon as he returns I’ll find out what’s going on with that.
Tia Rancourt – North Lake Tahoe Fire Protection District, Public Information Officer
We have good news on the Caldor, which is now 91% contained. We’re feeling good about that. And all our resources have come home.
Judy Miller – Incline Resident
We’re glad to see the CAB will have their first meeting in a while. I have a question but I don’t know if anyone from the County can answer it. The agenda says something about “public comment and discussion thereof.” That’s usually taboo when following Open Meeting Law, so I wondered why it was phrased that way. And also, the first agenda item is marked as “an item for action.” This seems a big odd, as public comment is not regarded as taking action. Maybe it’s because this is new and whoever’s making the agenda isn’t familiar with OML. Does anyone have any ideas?
Candee Ramos – Washoe County, Community Outreach Coordinator
There’s the 3 minutes per comment for public comment. I don’t have the agenda in front of me. But it’s just the traditional 3 minutes of public comment. And there is no action.
Okay. [10:06 inaudible] So it’s just opportunity for comment and the discussion won’t occur.
Ronda Tycer – IV Forum Recap Editor
Right. I think it was boilerplate.
It was boilerplate, so I’ll have to take a look at that.
Denise Davis – Incline Resident, IVGID Ordinance 7 Committee, Member
Candy, I have another question for you. Do you have any information on the redistricting?
Yes. There are 5 maps available on our website right now. You can put in comment. There are 5 different options being circulated. One option for redistricting is to keep things exactly as they area now. There has to be less than a 10% variation among the 5 districts, which we already fall within that. But there are the other 4 options. Incline Village and Crystal Bay would not be impacted under any of the options. It would still be as it is in District 1. The only part of District 1 that might change is the West Truckee/Verdi area which might switch to District 5. But your area will stay exactly the same. We’re taking public input right now. You can comment on which of the maps you all prefer. Then I believe at some point in November the Board of County Commissioners will vote on the new boundaries based on that public input. The link is:
Again for Candee. Who is drawing the lines on the maps? I asked Commissioner Alexis Hill, and she responded that the Commissioners will be the ones deciding at the end. No one has told me who actually sat down and redrew the lines for reapportionment in Districts 4 and 5. Who were those people?
I can find out who drew those lines.
I just want to know who is in charge of that. So that would be great. Thanks very much.
I’d like to know what changes have been made to the CAB compared to what it was before.
Yes. The change in the CAB is that before the CAB was restricted to discussing matters related to development projects. Unfortunately by the time the development projects made their way to the CABs to seek public input, it was frequently too late to make any changes to those projects. So it was moot at that point. So the CABs are going back to a format they were in many years ago where there addressed community topics. For instance, we were talking about the Tahoe Keys water earlier. That’s something that we could talk about in the CAB meeting. We can have the Washoe County Sheriff there talking about speeding, which we talked about here a few weeks ago. So there can be more community topics as opposed to just being about development. The development meetings will take place separately. The developers will be responsible for running those meetings. And they will be very early in the process so that people’s comments can be put into the plan for development. Does that answer your question? [Peter Todoroff – Yes]
I hear you but I don’t really understand. Before the CAB used to act as an advisory body and make recommendations. And those recommendations were part of the development process. However, it appears that this is curtailed completely. So even if the CAB makes recommendations, to whom will those recommendations go?
They’ll still be made to the County Commissioners and to the County development team. But the developers are planning those development neighborhood meetings very early in the process, so some of the conditions that the community provides as input will be implemented into the plan. It’s much earlier in the process. We can still provide updates and things like that at the CAB meetings. But a lot of the input will be done at the neighborhood development meetings aside from the CAB.
I understand that the developers will be required to notify just the neighbors who will be impacted by the project. I’d like to know if that is going to be a 300-foot radius around the project similar to TRPA’s mandate.
I had that same question recently because they said the “affected residents.” So I have that same question. So let me follow up with you. My coworker Marc De La Torre is on the call also, and he’s also in Community Outreach and Information Support. So I’ve asked that both of us be added to their email distribution list. So when these community meetings are out there, and they let them know that they’re taking place, even if someone isn’t in that immediately affected area, we will still make sure that IVCBA and IVCB Community 1s get notified. We have our distribution list, too, so we’ll make sure that people are aware in a much larger area. So even if developers don’t have to do it, we’re going to do it.
Excellent. Thank you very much. I have one more question for Candee and that is the agenda for the Community Meeting on Monday with Alexis Hill, says one of the items is to be a short-term rental discussion. Can you let us know specifically what about STRs will be discussed?
I know that Commissioner Hill is speaking with some of the individuals in the Community Service Department. All I know is that she’s coming with an update on that. There have been a lot of questions about owners who are operating STRs without a license. I just know she’s coming in with an update on that. I’m not sure of the specifics on that.
Corey Solferino – Washoe County Sheriff Office, Captain
Just to give you guys an update on our crime trend, from the last report, we had some active burglaries in the Tahoe Meadows trailhead area. We have had no repeat incidents. So that’s a good thing. We’re doing some different things up here. I have another sergeant who is up here full time now. Another one just completed his training. And 5 of our new deputies are in training down in the Valley. So our 4th sergeant will be in place by November. We’re holding him down in Reno for some staffing issues. Right now we have a lot of movement—a lot of retirements and a lot of vacancies—so it’s like a chess match to move people around to get them up here and trained. I’ll have my entire leadership team in place by December 15th. And 5 of our deputies will be assigned up here permanently. More will have completed their program by December also. So then we’ll start working on next year’s movement and all will be here by next summer. Looking forward, you guys will see more people out on the roads—a lot more presence. If you have any concerns about any areas. I know—having attended this meeting the last 4 months—that traffic is a great community concern. Commissioner Hill, Candee Ramos, myself and others from the Officers Management Team are really looking at how we can address some of the parking issues. We’re going to prioritize that to try to address some of those issues we keep hearing about [inaudible]. We don’t have a great answer for you yet, but we’ve only been up here 2 months; so please gives us the opportunity and we’ll come up with some viable solutions. We have been listening so your feedback is not falling on deaf ears.
We are looking at a couple of fund-raising opportunities sponsored by the WCSO for raising funds for victims of the fire on the other side of lake. That’s about all I have to report at this time. Do you have any specific questions for me?
Yolanda Knaak – Incline Resident.
So when you’re working on a traffic plan, perhaps you can consider adding a bike lane. Right now the bikes are on the walking paths. When we get to an e-bike decision, and whether they’re allowed on the streets with cars, I’m concerned about that. So would there be any way to add a bike lane? [22:39 inaudible]
That’s something we can certainly discuss. Up here the roads are very narrow and it doesn’t leave a lot of room for bike lanes. But that’s a conversation we can entertain.
The e-bike issue we’re working on is from the code perspective. The larger issue by and large is up to the NV Legislature mandates.—whether to restrict them to off road. Whether they’re going to be licensed and enforced as a motorized vehicle or assisted motorized vehicle. That’s something that’s headed down the road. So I don’t want… I want to listen to both sides. Obviously, Tahoe is a tourist destination, and we want to make sure people are recreating safely. There are two sides to this issue. But we don’t want to overreact and over-legislate—but we’ll consider both parties on that. [inaudible 23:40]
Is there any update of booting on boats? I’ve noticed on Northwood, there are boats that have been there for months. And on Alder there’s a motorhome you put on a pickup, and there are boats as well. And I saw jet skis. Is there any update on moving these vehicles so we can collect money, or are they just going to keep parking there?
That’s something we’re trying to assess. I’m not monitoring those vehicles, and I’m not sure who is. That’s not something for the Sheriff’s Office. That’s not our business obviously. We tow vehicles that are a hazard—when they’re obstructing fire hydrants, or they’re a danger to the community. There have been a lot of construction projects specifically on Country Club and Lakeshore. We work with those construction companies to make sure workers are not congesting the area and their equipment vehicles aren’t in the roadway without proper notices, and creating hazards. [inaudible] Again that’s another conversation for another day as to how we address some of those parking issues—long-term storage and things of that nature. But that’s not my purview.
Kristina Hill – Incline Resident, Washoe County Board of Adjustment, Member
At the next meeting of the Board of Adjustment, we’ll be approving plans for a special event at the Hyatt, which happens to be my project, so I probably shouldn’t talk about it. It’s just a conference. But if you put up a tent, it requires a permit. And another couple of grading permits, but they’re not in the Tahoe Basin or impacting Incline. One is on East Lake Blvd east of 580; and the other is at 620 La Camala Court in Spanish Springs. So there are only three items on the Board of Adjustment agenda and only the Hyatt special event is in Incline.
Do you want to say anything about the e-bikes on the trails being developed in the areas around your house?
Did I say something about e-bikes? I don’t think so. Oh, you’re referring to the trails that are being developed all over in the mountains around our house. It’s insane. I haven’t seen any signs or been down there lately to look at them. I’ve been hiking around the Mt. Rose area. Since bikes are only allowed on the Tahoe Rim Trail on “even numbered days,” I try to go hiking on “odd numbered days” and stay away from the bikes.
Is it posted anywhere that bikes are only allowed on the trail on even days?
It’s posted on the website and at starting points along the Tahoe Rim Trail.
Jeff do you have anything you want to add to that?
We’ve been working with the US Forest Service on their updates to their forest plans where they’re allowed to use e-bikes. They just involved us in the conversation in their public meetings and workshops. But at this point we haven’t been asked to weigh in. And we don’t have rules on what kind of bikes they’ll allow.
Is the community going to be involved in that or not?
Yes. There were a number of public workshops this spring. I presume because this is just specific to the Lake Tahoe Bureau of Land Management, whatever they’re proposing is going to be on hold for a while. A number of their resources are going to be focused on fire repair and recovery for the time being. We haven’t heard anything back from them about trails plans.
When you do, could you send me that information? I’d appreciate it.
Yes, I absolutely will.
I have a question for Jeff. I understand the Old Elementary School permit meeting is still going to be held, I believe, on October 14. The decision to be made is simply whether or not the Tahoe Transportation District will be allowed to renew or to make a new application for permission to run the East Shore Express from the Old Elementary School. We presume that the ESE is only running in the summer. So the question is, what else will they be getting that permit for? What will be the purpose of getting it now?
It looks like the schedule for that is in flux because the TRPA Planner on that project application—Bridget Cornell—and I spoke yesterday. Right now they’re scheduling the meeting for October 28. I’ve prepared an email to send to you and Pete—it’s just about ready to send—it has the link with that information and the schedule. We expect the staff summary and recommendations to be posted 7 days before the 28th, so the 21st. I have her email and links to the online application that TTD submitted and the site plans that we’re reviewing. The application is for temporary use—as you say—it is good for 6 months, and at that point they could apply to extend it another 6 months. And that is the extent of the application. It would not go beyond 12 months. We have an appointment 6 months after—if a permit is approved—we would have 6 months after that to have them evaluate how things are going if that’s approved. It is a Temporary Use. And it is a Special Use because the School District isn’t zoned for that use. That is all that I know. I think your question was, “Are they asking for more?” The application would have that in there. My awareness is that all they’re asking for is to use the Incline Elementary School site as a transit mobility hub for the East Shore Express.
I have a question on that. Are they going to do an Environmental Impact Statement on that?
No. I understand a Temporary Use application is pretty simple from TRPA’s perspective. What we’re looking at is: are they creating additional coverage, are they creating any buildings, how long will the use go on for?
If it’s a Special Use, we notify affected property owners within 300 feet by letter/mail. We are obviously going beyond what is legally required as a matter of community support and service. We think that this project has a lot of interest in the community. I have a list of things that we’re doing, which I’ll email along with my email to you, Ronda, Denise, and Kathie. That goes over what we’re doing as far as outreach goes. You will find that the application… the materials required for Temporary Use… don’t involve a traffic analyses and things like that. That would happen under a Permanent permit.
On a related subject, does anyone know the status of the funding for the Elementary School Bus Hub? I asked Commissioner Hill. Washoe’s Reno Transportation Commission (RTC) already approved their portion of it. The other part is supposed to come from the Nevada Department of Conservation and Natural Resources (DCNR). The Nevada Tahoe Regional Planning Agency (NTRPA) is one of the Boards that is part of that department. I don’t think Commissioner Hill could be on that Board. I don’t know whether or when they meet. How do we find out about NTRPA? I haven’t been able to determine if that’s [34:03 inaudible]
I just read the TTD meeting agenda for Friday. It is on the agenda for them to discuss changing the request for funding from Washoe County to these two other agencies. Apparently they have to make that change before they can accept the money from the other agencies.
Okay, but RTC has already approved the funds. I’m trying to find out if some other agency has approved the other half of the funds.
Maybe that will be brought up at the Commissioners meeting.
That is not a County decision. It’s actually the Department of Conservation.
Jeff, is the Department of Conservation part of TRPA?
The Nevada Department of Conservation and Natural Resources is not part of TRPA. The NTRPA is… I don’t know whether it’s part of the Legislature or part of DCNR.
On the NDCNR website, it lists the NTRPA as one of the many boards that make up that agency. I can’t find any information on meeting times for those boards.
We can find out.
Yolanda Knaak – Incline Resident
I’m curious. Since they put in the Washoe County STR Ordinance, how are they going to monitor to see how effective that program is?
That’s a great question and I’m sure Commissioner Alexis hill will answer that on Monday. I hope you’ll be able to make it to the CAB meeting Monday night. She is giving an update on the STRs. And I think that’s a very fair question, and hopefully she will be able to answer that for you.
Did everyone get a notice about the Community Meeting on Monday? Give me your name and I’ll send you the notice.
I think we should just resend the notice to your entire list again. She’s on your list. So yes, we can send out the notification from Washoe County.
Candee, does the County have a list of how it notifies IVCB citizens of CAB meetings? How do notifications of CAB meetings go out?
I send it to everyone who is on the CAB board. And we send it out to everyone who is on our District 1 mailing list. So over 1000 people receive it. We do encourage people to go on to the WashoeCounty.us website and sign up to receive notifications. We also posted it at the Library, so it should be posted right where you are. And it’s on the Washoe County website CAB page, as well as on notice.NV.gov. So it’s posted in a lot of different places, and also on our building here in Reno. It did go out to quite a few people. I also sent it to IVCB Community 1st and IVCBA.org.
I noticed there were representatives from the County that are in Communication. And they went to a much bigger effort to make use of social media to publish announcements. So I’m wondering if your announcement can be put on NextDoor and on the IVCB Facebook page, which is quite extensive. Just doing things to the CAB members themselves isn’t enough. District 1 is huge and we’re only a tiny part of District 1. So if you could use the social media platforms, that would be helpful.
I’ll log in and try to do that today. Thank you.
Kari Ferguson – Incline Village General Improvement District, Communication Coordinator
Candee, I also just sent you a message. I’m the IVGID Communication Coordinator, so if you send it to me, I can help push out the information. I’m ivgid.com on Facebook and Nextdoor. And I’ll push out anything you send me.
Thank you, Kari.
Is it my understanding there’s a CAB meeting this Monday at 5pm at the IVGID Board’s Southwood office?
It’s on Zoom at 5:30.
On Monday at 5:30 on Zoom. So we need all the zoom information—meeting number and password to attend?
You don’t need a password to attend. Anyone with the link can attend, and the link also has the agenda. The Zoom link is:
What if you can’t get the agenda? I can only use my I-Pad for zoom. My computer doesn’t have audio/visual capacity. But I don’t get email on my I-Pad. So how can I get the link so I know the meeting ID and password? Otherwise I can’t do it. I can do it on my phone. I can attend on my phone. I get email on my phone, so send me the link.
Kristina can you use the meeting ID and password? Would that help?
Yes. For these Community Forums I have the meeting ID and password right there. I have it practically memorized. But I can’t do it on my computer. I have to do it on my I-Pad. And I don’t get email on my I-Pad so I can’t just click on a link. So I can do it on my phone. I’ll just attend via my phone.
Does anyone else have any questions?
I think we should make one more announcement. The Village Market is closing. The reason is because they cannot get employees. The employees cannot afford to live in Incline anymore. And the reason that there is no affordable housing, is, in part, due to the fact that so much of the middle-income housing has been utilized for short-term rentals. We now have a list of about 840 STRs that have applied for permits, and of those about 65% are condos in the middle-income range. So we know that a majority of STRs are usurping our employee housing. There is no longer any question as to whether STRs are destroying the fabric of the community. We will continue to lose businesses because we cannot get employees. This is not just an Incline issue. It is a Lake Tahoe issue. But because of Incline Village’s position on the Lake near the East Shore, we are a highly desirable destination so we are finding ourselves with a lot more STRs… about 15% of our housing stock already. And without a cap on STRs from the County, we will continue down this path. We’re hoping there may be some cap or reversal or some kind of restrictions on STRs before the village is nothing but a tourist destination.
I have an announcement for IVGID. Next week our local kids here in Incline will be on Fall Break. If you don’t see any kids in town, they’re all going somewhere, and taking a little break out of school. I also want to let you know that the boat ramp closed yesterday due to low water levels. We can’t even take reservations to launch boats. So if you’re interested in boat launching, please do a rain dance for us. We need a little more precipitation in the lake to make it happen. We have a job fair for Diamond Peak on October 14 in the afternoon at 3pm right at the lodge there outside. And then we have the Trail of Treats coming up on October 28. This event will be held outside at the Fitness Course and Village Green area. It’s only for Incline Village and Crystal Bay. The registration opened this morning at 9am. We are already getting lots of registrations, which is exciting.
And my final announcement is that we are doing an Ordinance 7/Recreation Privileges education campaign to maybe help bridge the gap between what people think they know but they don’t know. So just trying to make sure everyone’s on the same page with Ordinance 7 recreation privileges. That’s it. I hope everyone has a great weekend.
Amanda McPhaill– Washoe County Incline Library, Librarian
We’re slowly starting up our in-person programming. We’re starting out with our early literacy programs. Baby story time (from birth to 18 months) is Tuesday from 11:30. And Toddler story time (from 18 months to 2 years) is Thursday at 11:30. We’re open Monday through Friday from 10-6.
We also have a magician Larry Wilson coming up Wednesday October 13 at 4pm for all ages. He’s a world-renown magician. He’s been on TV. He’s been at the library before.
Other than that, we’re open Monday through Friday 10-6. Tuesday’s our late night when we’re open until 7pm. If you want to come to Story Time at 6:30 on Tuesday, come in your PJs. Last time we had a Dad bring his kids. The Dad was in pajamas; the kids were in pajamas. It was wonderful.
A few weeks ago we asked about extended hours for Saturday.
We’re looking into that. We’ve let the Director know we want it. So we’ll see what happens.
If there are no other announcements, we’ll adjourn. Thanks for coming.
Jon and Beth Davidson
Marc De La Torre
09:15:42 From IVGID Communications to Washoe County Libraries(Direct Message) : Hey. Can we have people at the library more quiet. It’s hard to hear
09:16:16 From Washoe County Libraries to IVGID Communications (Direct Message) : Yes. I can mute when no one is speaking
09:16:32 From IVGID Communications to Washoe County Libraries (Direct Message) : Maybe remind them to not chat?!
09:17:25 From Judith Simon : please mute if you are not speaking. Lots of side conversations make it difficult to hear folks in the Library meeting room
09:17:56 From Washoe County Libraries to IVGID Communications (Direct Message) : I think it’s office chatter from Candee
09:18:11 From Tia Rancourt : Yes! Agreed!
09:21:54 From Candee Ramos : Webpage for Redistricting information:
09:21:56 From Candee Ramos : https://washoelife.washoecounty.gov/washoe-county/washoe-county-seeks-input-on-county-commission-redistricting/
09:22:43 From Candee Ramos : These are the five maps and there is a link to provide community input: https://redistricting-2021-proposed-plans-washoe.hub.arcgis.com/apps/118ab8ab4fd546908b17e174b768177b/explore
09:23:11 From Judith Simon : RE: Herbicides. The newspaper had an ad sponsored by the Tahoe Keys HOA inviting people to an open house at the keys titled in part “get the facts” 9 am to noon October 9 at the …
09:24:19 From Judith Simon : … Tahoe Keys Pavilion, 356 Ala Wai Boulevard, South Lake Tahoe, CA
09:37:48 From IVGID Communications to Washoe County Libraries (Direct Message) : Sorry!
09:45:12 From IVGID Communications to Washoe County Libraries (Direct Message) : I have announcements
09:46:00 From kathie julian : Candee can you send out just the link to the CAB meeting, not just embedded in the agenda?
09:47:50 From Candee Ramos : https://us06web.zoom.us/j/82231865379?pwd=TTF2M3FaSnR0bE9jQVA2Q1lJb2hqUT09
09:48:18 From Candee Ramos : Link to Monday’s CAB at 5:30 p.m.
09:50:50 From Jeff Cowen : I have a call starting at 10 a.m. I’ll follow up with the information on NTRPA. I shared the links and info on the Mobility Hub temporary use application with Pete, Ronda, Denise, and Kathie Julian.